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If you live here, take off the burqa.

May 16, 2010

I don’t find this very difficult to understand.

If you are female and you live in Saudi Arabia, you have to cover your face with a niqab.

If you are female and you live in (parts of?) Afghanistan, you have to wear a burqa.

If you live in Canada or America or many other countries, you have to show your face.

Don’t want to hide your face?  Don’t live there.

Don’t want to show your face?  Don’t live here.

50 Comments leave one →
  1. Scott Down permalink
    May 31, 2010 11:09 am

    So you’re willing to insult some One Billion People in the world in the name of freedom of expression, but you won’t let those people express themselves?

    That’s a little hypocritical, isn’t it?

  2. afshan permalink
    June 2, 2010 12:16 pm

    “If you are female and you live in Saudi Arabia, you have to cover your face with a niqab.” No you don’t…do your research first…i live here…i should know…i don’t cover my face…

  3. Michele permalink*
    June 2, 2010 12:26 pm

    My mistake: The niqab is required by law in parts of Saudi Arabia and basically required in other parts of the country if women don’t want to be harassed by the religious police.

    Better?

  4. afshana permalink
    June 2, 2010 3:44 pm

    nope…still incorrect…how many women do you know or have talked to who lived or are living in Saudi? like i said check your facts…non Muslim women DO NOT cover their faces…i personally know many…and have NEVER been harassed…are you confusing the niqaab with the abayaa?

  5. Michele permalink*
    June 2, 2010 4:11 pm

    The essays that I have read are by women who had to wear both the niqaab and the abayaa. In fact, one was a non-Muslim woman.

  6. afshana permalink
    June 2, 2010 4:52 pm

    well i live here and i assure you that non Muslim women DO NOT have to cover their faces…take my word for it…Saudi Arabia has a large Filipino/Sri Lankan/Indian/etc. community…the non Muslim ladies belonging to these communities DO NOT cover their faces…like i said i live here and i should know…

  7. crazybengal permalink*
    October 3, 2010 6:46 am

    The non-muslim women in Saudi don’t cover their faces because they are dhimmi slaves.
    http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/SaudiArabia.htm

  8. afshana permalink
    October 3, 2010 10:13 am

    yeah right…

    did you even read it yourself…if you did, you must have missed THIS and i quote:

    “CAUTION: The following links have been culled from the web to illuminate the situation in Saudi Arabia. Some of these links may lead to websites that present allegations that are UNSUBATANTIATED OR EVEN FALSE. NO ATTEMPT (emphasis mine) has been made to verify their authenticity or to validate their content.”

  9. afshana permalink
    October 3, 2010 10:23 am

    From the same website:

    “Israel is a destination country for men and women trafficked for the purposes of forced labor and sexual exploitation. Low-skilled workers from China, Romania, Turkey, Thailand, the Philippines, Nepal, Sri Lanka, and India migrate voluntarily and legally to Israel for contract labor in the construction, agriculture, and health care industries. Some, however, subsequently face conditions of forced labor, including the unlawful withholding of passports, restrictions on movement, non-payment of wages, threats, and physical intimidation. – U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June, 2009

    Austria is a transit and destination country for women and children trafficked from Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Moldova, Belarus, Ukraine, Slovakia, Nigeria, and sub-Saharan Africa for the purposes of commercial sexual exploitation and forced labor. Some of these women are trafficked through Austria to Italy, France, and Spain. Women from Africa are trafficked through Spain and Italy to Austria for the purpose of sexual exploitation. There are reports of some trafficking of foreign women and children for the purpose of forced domestic servitude and forced begging within Austria. – U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June, 2009

    Australia is a destination country for women from Southeast Asia, South Korea, Taiwan, the People’s Republic of China (PRC), and reportedly Eastern Europe trafficked for the purpose of commercial sexual exploitation. Some men and women from several Pacific islands, India, the PRC, South Korea, the Philippines, and Ireland are fraudulently recruited to work temporarily in Australia, but subsequently are subjected to conditions of forced labor, including confiscation of travel documents, confinement, and threats of serious harm. Some indigenous teenage girls are subjected to forced prostitution at rural truck stops. – U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June, 2009

    Canada is a source, transit, and destination country for men, women, and children trafficked for the purposes of commercial sexual exploitation and forced labor. Canadian women and girls, many of whom are aboriginal, are trafficked internally for commercial sexual exploitation.

    NGOs report that Canada is a destination country for foreign victims trafficked for labor exploitation; some labor victims enter Canada legally but then are subjected to forced labor in agriculture, sweatshops, or as domestic servants. – U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June, 2009

    The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency estimates that 50,000 people are trafficked into or transited through the U.S.A. annually as sex slaves, domestics, garment, and agricultural slaves.

    The United States is a destination country for thousands of men, women, and children trafficked largely from Mexico and East Asia, as well as countries in South Asia, Central America, Africa, and Europe, for the purposes of sexual and labor exploitation. Three-quarters of all foreign adult victims identified during the Fiscal Year (FY) 2008 were victims of trafficking for forced labor. Some trafficking victims, responding to fraudulent offers of employment in the United States, migrate willingly—legally and illegally—and are subsequently subjected to conditions of involuntary servitude or debt bondage at work sites or in commercial sex. An unknown number of American citizens and legal residents are trafficked within the country, primarily for sexual servitude.

    The U.S. Government (USG) in 2008 continued to advance the goal of eradicating human trafficking in the United States. This coordinated effort includes several federal agencies and approximately $23 million in FY 2008 for domestic programs to boost anti-trafficking law enforcement efforts, identify and protect victims of trafficking, and raise awareness of trafficking as a means of preventing new incidents. – Adapted from U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June, 2009 ”

    Shall I continue?

    • Michele permalink*
      October 3, 2010 10:37 am

      What is your point? That slavery exists everywhere? That’s true.

      What I noticed is missing from your huge chunk of quoted text is actual numbers of victims. I also noticed that the U.S. Government is trying to eradicate human trafficking. Can the same be said of Saudi Arabia?

      Oh, and to answer your question, no. You should not continue. Just give a link and skip copying complete essays from other sites. If you want to do that, get your own blog.

  10. crazybengal permalink*
    October 3, 2010 11:10 am

    I love it when she gets all huffy.

  11. crazybengal permalink*
    October 3, 2010 12:06 pm

    Everyone knows that Saudi is notorious for human rights violations – foreign workers have to surrender their passports when they enter the country. Then they are trapped. Saudi would collapse into a sandy ghetto if it were not for the oil wealth. Public beheadings and lashings are a national sport.

  12. crazybengal permalink*
    October 3, 2010 3:32 pm

    Hey babe! Can you drive a car in Saudi yet?

    • Michele permalink*
      October 3, 2010 6:44 pm

      I wonder if you have any peripheral vision while wearing a niqab.

  13. crazybengal permalink*
    October 3, 2010 6:54 pm

    Like a horse wearing blinders – no wonder the Saudi government has concerns about the wisdom of allowing women to drive. How do you go shopping if you don’t have a driver? I assume that there is a bus transit system?

  14. afshana permalink
    October 3, 2010 7:34 pm

    “What is your point? That slavery exists everywhere?” YOU GOT IT! “Just give a link and skip copying complete essays from other sites.” SO BLOCK ME! “I love it when she gets all huffy.” WELL, YOU HAD A HUFFY MOMENT TOO WHEN YOU QUOTED THAT SITE WITHOUT DOING MUCH RESEARCH WHETHER IT IS A RELIABLE ONE OR NOT! “…foreign workers have to surrender their passports when they enter the country.” So, using YOUR argument, don’t come here! “Saudi would collapse into a sandy ghetto if it were not for the oil wealth.” Then try surviving without Saudi oil, BABE! “Public beheadings and lashings are a national sport.” Just like rape, incest etc. are in the west? “I wonder if you have any peripheral vision while wearing a niqab.” Why don’t you ask SGI…I’ve seen a LOT of women driving with a niqab in Saskatoon…if that isn’t a problem with SGI, why is it with you?

    • Michele permalink*
      October 3, 2010 8:34 pm

      Incest in the west? You must be confused.
      Consanguinity is much more common in the middle east.

      Consanguineous marriage prevalence:
      US 50%
      Pakistan > 50%

    • Michele permalink*
      October 3, 2010 8:36 pm

      SGI is probably completely clueless about niqabs or they don’t dare say anything for fear of being labelled “racist”.

      And there are very, very few women in Saskatoon who wear niqabs. I’ve only seen two.

    • Michele permalink*
      October 3, 2010 8:37 pm

      And did anything we’ve ever written ever imply that we would ever think about visiting Saudi Arabia?

  15. afshana permalink
    October 3, 2010 9:08 pm

    “…foreign workers have to surrender their passports when they enter the country.” I am a foreigner living in Saudi and guess where my passport is…IT IS WITH ME!!!

  16. afshana permalink
    October 3, 2010 9:09 pm

    “SGI is probably completely clueless about niqabs” and you, having worn one all your life, know better!!!

  17. afshana permalink
    October 3, 2010 9:12 pm

    and consanguineous marriages are of course illegal in Canada, eh?

  18. afshana permalink
    October 3, 2010 9:13 pm

    “Jews have married ear relatives more frequently than the rest of the world. The marriage of first cousins and even of uncle and niece is quite legal and usual among them”…UNCLE AND NIECE…IMAGINE THAT!!!

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=734&letter=C

  19. afshana permalink
    October 3, 2010 11:23 pm

    “…the Protestant denominations permit marriages up to and including first cousin unions”

    “Dravidian Hindus of South India strongly favour marriage between first cousins of the type mother’s brother’s daughter (MBD) and, particularly in the states of Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu, uncle-niece marriages also are widely contracted.”

    “In general, Muslim regulations on marriage parallel the Judaic pattern detailed inLeviticus 18: 7-18. However, uncle-niece unions are permitted in Judaism. Yet they are forbidden by the Koran”

    “Buddhism sanctions marriage between first cousins, as does the Zoroastrian/Parsi tradition”

    “…first cousin marriages are legal in countries such as the U.K. and Australia,…”

    http://www.consang.net/index.php/Summary#Introduction

    • Michele permalink*
      October 4, 2010 6:35 pm

      Can you even follow your own arguments?

      You stated that incest was common in the west. I gave you a link to a map showing that consanguineous marriages are more common, by far, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

      Who cares what ancient religious texts sanction? I’m interested in how people interpret them today and the actions of people today.

  20. afshana permalink
    October 3, 2010 11:26 pm

    shall i continue;)

  21. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 12:17 am

    Really? read this then “marriages between uncles and nieces are permissible in Jewish canon law” http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/tutor/case_studies/hebrews/marriage.html

    and this “Traditionally, Judaism does permit marriages between uncles and nieces”

  22. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 12:18 am

    link for the last quote: http://judaism.about.com/od/birthtomarria2/f/wed_uncle_niece.htm

  23. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 12:21 am

    “In Jewish incest law, an aunt-nephew marriage is prohibited, but an uncle-niece marriage is permitted” http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/468337/jewish/Prohibited-Marriages.htm

    Shall I continue:)

  24. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 2:20 am

    it may have been published between 1901 and 1905 but, “it does contain an incredible amount of information that is remarkably relevant today.”

    Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp#ixzz11NNq3w00

  25. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 4:23 am

    “If you live in Canada or America…, you have to show your face.” says WHO? Is it the law in Canada or America? The last i checked IT WASN”T’…

    “OTTAWA — The Conservative government will not follow France’s lead to consider banning the burka.

    “In an open and democratic society like Canada, individuals are free to make their own decisions regarding their personal apparel and to adhere to their own customs or traditions of their faith and/or beliefs,” said a spokesperson for Justice Minister Rob Nicholson. “We have no plans to introduce justice legislation in this matter.””

    http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/01/26/12623371-qmi.html

    “”We do not think that you should legislate what people can wear or not wear associated with their religious beliefs,” said State Department spokesman Philip Crowley.

    “Here in the United States, we would take a different step to balance security and to respect religious freedom and the symbols that go along with religious freedom,” he said.”

    http://www.france24.com/en/20100715-usa-tells-france-not-ban-burqa-senate-bill-washington

    And btw how come you haven’t answered Scott Down’s questions yet?

  26. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 4:31 am

    “The essays that I have read are by women who had to wear both the niqaab and the abayaa. In fact, one was a non-Muslim woman.” ONE? JUST ONE? And you base your opinion on ONE essay? Wow!!!

  27. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 5:00 am

    “If you live in Canada or America…, you have to show your face.” says WHO? Is it the law in Canada or America? The last i checked IT WASN”T’…

  28. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 5:01 am

    “OTTAWA — The Conservative government will not follow France’s lead to consider banning the burka.
    http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/01/26/12623371-qmi.html

  29. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 5:02 am

    ”We do not think that you should legislate what people can wear or not wear associated with their religious beliefs,” said State Department spokesman Philip Crowley.”

    http://www.france24.com/en/20100715-usa-tells-france-not-ban-burqa-senate-bill-washington

    And btw how come you haven’t answered Scott Down’s questions yet?

  30. crazybengal permalink*
    October 4, 2010 7:40 am

    Fact is, and in reality, Jews do not marry relatives. But mulsims do. It is a huge problem in the UK. I would never go to Saudi. How do we know you have your passport – plus you said you lived there…so of course you have something to ID yourself – but shouldn’t you have an Iqama in place of a passport. Did you know that I can’t take a Bible into Saudi – but I can take one to the US, Canada or Israel. And it is just a matter of time before everyone in the civilized world will be required to show their faces in public. No veils. It is a safety thing. Public beheadings and lashings sanctioned by a “government” is not something you can compare to anything that occurs in the west.

  31. crazybengal permalink*
    October 4, 2010 7:42 am

    “Residents working in Saudi Arabia generally must surrender their passports while in the Kingdom. The sponsor (normally the employer) obtains work and residence permits for the employee and for any family members. Family members of those working are not required by law to surrender their passports, though they often do. Residents carry a Saudi residence permit (Iqama) for identification in place of their passports. The U.S. Embassy and Consulates General in Saudi Arabia cannot sponsor private American citizens for Saudi visas.”
    -Bureau of Consular Affairs US for Travel to Saudi Arabia

  32. crazybengal permalink*
    October 4, 2010 7:49 am

    Visa applications must be sponsored by a Saudi citizen, company, or organization. Upon arrival, foreign residents are required to surrender their passports to their sponsor and obtain a residency card (iqama).

    Women should be aware that they have to be met by their sponsors upon arrival. Failure to do so could result in long delays or denial of entry. To leave the country, they should seek their sponsor’s as well as their husband’s permission (see sub-section “Family’’ below).

    -Government of Canada

  33. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 10:07 am

    “How do we know you have your passport” because i say so…this is not something i would lie about…i have my passport and my iqama…

  34. crazybengal permalink*
    October 4, 2010 10:28 am

    So do you live in Saudi? Do you work there as a foreign domestic worker? Because those people do have to surrender their passports. or are you just visiting? Why do you get to keep your passport and other visitors do not get to keep theirs? You cannot be a Canadian or US citizen…

  35. crazybengal permalink*
    October 4, 2010 10:33 am

    You didn’t answer – do you drive in Saudi? Are you rich enough to have a driver? What do you do if you don’t have a driver?

  36. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 11:09 am

    “You cannot be a Canadian or US citizen” you assume a lot dont you? i will give you my personal details if you give me your’s…deal?

  37. crazybengal permalink*
    October 4, 2010 11:18 am

    Do you drive in Saudi?

  38. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 11:21 am

    no i dont…i dont have to…and if that is not a problem for me, i cant see how it is a problem for you…

  39. crazybengal permalink*
    October 4, 2010 11:24 am

    Muslima is very mysterious

  40. afshana permalink
    October 4, 2010 12:13 pm

    “And it is just a matter of time before everyone in the civilized world will be required to show their faces in public” well if and until that time comes, do not make statements like “If you live in Canada… you have to show your face.”

  41. crazybengal permalink*
    October 4, 2010 12:21 pm

    and beautiful

  42. crazybengal permalink*
    October 4, 2010 7:41 pm

    Afshana – are you allowed to drive in Saudi? No.
    The fact that you don’t drive is not a problem for me or for you. But the fact that you don’t and can’t drive speaks volumes about the freedoms afforded women in a true muslim country. And the fact that public beheadings are a-ok in saudi speaks volumes about the primitive tribal culture of Saudi Arabia.

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